#027 Navigating the World of Account-Based Marketing and Enterprise Sales with John Dering

Steven Morell: Welcome to our new episode of Speak Revenue. Remember, revenue is not a goal. It's a result. But a result of what? In this show, we turn our eyes from the input towards the output. And we speak with revenue leaders, and sales leaders, and entrepreneurs about their journey and what works for them and what didn't. Today in my show, I have John Dering. Thanks for joining me.

John Dering: Thanks for having me, Steven. Excited to be here and talk revenue!

Steven Morell: It's a thank you! It's a pleasure having you. John, not everybody knows you. So for our audience, real quick. Who is John Dering? What are you doing and why are you so successful?

John Dering: Well, Steven, thanks for the warm intro. I lead revenue marketing teams at B2B SaaS organizations. Focused on contributing and driving the growth of the organization. I have held roles and have deep expertise in demand generation, marketing ops content and evangelism as well as business development and partnerships. And those have all kind of come together to help me get a broader understanding of the landscape of the organization. But also to profile the industries, which within I work. And I really love understanding the buyer psychology and how to deliver value across that customer journey. And I think that mixed with kind of my second love of marketing, which is around the teaming efforts that go in and how we build successful growth within organizations. I think those are the two drivers that have brought me together and delivered and contributed to my success.

Steven Morell: You've been with Demandbase, you've been with WorkBoard and I happen to know that you were selling to the big fish, to the whale. Whales are not fish. I know. But you were going whale hunting, enterprise sales, account-based marketing. I think your LinkedIn profile states that you lead account-based marketing teams or account-based sales teams. Talk to me real quick. What is account-based marketing?

John Dering: Great question, Steven, because as we at Demandbase built that category, we found that in the US there was a different definition than we found in our European counterparts. So it's really important that we understand what the core of that is. And the core of account-based marketing is simply a specific set of accounts that an organization wants to go after to deliver a prescribed business outcome. So that could be acquiring new customers, that can be growing your internal customer base. That could be developing more successful partnerships that could be targeting the right organizations where you wanna recruit talent out of. In fact a demand base, early in the days, we actually used our technology to target the appropriate VCs so that we were looking for next funding rounds. So again, you could think about it in any context that way. Let me dive here. Real practical. I wanna do account-based marketing. That I do this with companies who are big, right? I'm not doing this with mom-and-pop, brick-and-mortar stores. Correct. Yeah. 

Steven Morell: Okay? So it's a finite list of companies. I go to ZoomInfo, Apollo, wherever you go for your data needs, and I grab a list of, I don't know how many companies, how many accounts should be in that list? 500, 1500, 15000? How big is such a list?

John Dering: Excellent question. We get, we used to get that all the time at Demandbase and, the unfortunate response is, it varies, but typically how you wanna back into that list is thinking about the capacity for your sales organization first. How many accounts can one salesperson take on at any given time because the idea is that both sales and marketing are focusing all of their resources on a single set of accounts, a target account list. So what we do is... 

Steven Morell: Hold on for our listeners, because I think this is a very important thing. So you go someplace, you pull a list of companies and you go like, I wanna make this list of companies my customers. And I'm not doing anything else. I have that list of companies, all car makers in the world, for instance, or all phone companies in the world. I think there are 800 phone providers worldwide. So that would be my list, and then I figure out how many of those can my team handle at the same time. How do I know that?

John Dering: Well, So you have to talk to your sales leaders, and again, that's one of the values of a BM is getting marketing and sales aligned. But, you know, you need to have that conversation and the sales team needs to be involved in how that list is being developed, not only from the capacity perspective. But also the quality perspective, right? So every list of every automaker in the world sounds great for a TAM or a Target account list, but you need to understand what your best customers look like, your ICP, and you need to make sure you're overlaying that on that list of automakers. Because most likely there's gonna be a set of those automakers who don't fit that profile. So while they might fit into a TAM description, like all automakers, when you really get down to it, those aren't accounts that are gonna be good customers. And your sales team knows that. So we need to understand and work with sales to do that. And then to say: "Hey, Mr and Mrs. CRO or VP of Sales, how many accounts do you think your sales rep can work at any one time?" Its demand base, we are right in that about 120 per rep. So then you can take that, multiply it by your rep and say: okay, here's how many accounts should be on our target account list right now. What I'm hearing is, It depends on how much one sales rep can work at the time. But what does this entail? It's different from the standard full cycle. AE that contacts I don't know, a VP Sales on LinkedIn and pitches a product or tries to get an appointment.

Steven Morell: So account-based marketing, as far as I always imagine it, it's not one, it's not a field where I have a lot of experience in. If you approach a whole group of people at an account. Is that correct?

John Dering: Yep. Yep. The buying center. 

Steven Morell: What does the sales rep do?

John Dering: Great question. So the way you think about account based marketing is that, as I was just saying you put all of your investment, both sales and marketing against going after that target account list. It doesn't mean that another account that isn't on your list that fits your ICP raises their hand and says, I want to talk about your product. You don't push them away, you still service them. They walk in off the street into your quote unquote storefront. But what it does mean as resources for the organization, as we go to market, we're gonna focus on those specific sets of accounts. we've agreed holistically, this is where we have our best chance of winning. So for a sales rep, marketing's gonna do some of the things they do. They're gonna provide some air cover and some brand awareness. They're gonna run campaigns against those accounts to try to get them engaged, be it email campaigns or events or nurtures or, some other go-to-market motions. While at the same time the sales reps are also trying to break into that account as well. So in ABM, you don't have that traditional MQL handoff scenario. What you're doing is you're trying to go in as a holistic team and drive engagement in that account. So that sales can begin those conversations. And as you noted, the buying centers, typically have anywhere from, pre-covid, I think the measure was like 6 and 6.9 buyers or something. And then post-covid it, it shot up. And especially in this, more efficient market wherein now it's gone up even more. Because you have, say the CFO leaning in heavily to all purchasing decisions. Some of those people you're gonna get, and some of those people are the right people for sales to be going after reaching out for marketing to go after too.  But there's other people in that buying center, procurement, the CFO things that, they're not in the day-to-day value conversations, but they need to be made aware of the purchase consideration, the value, things like that so that when you get to that stage in your sales process, you can remove some of that friction and accelerate it. So essentially when we think about the customer journey at, or you might think of that as a funnel at the top of the funnel, it's more heavily marketing dominated. At the bottom of the funnel, it's more sales dominated, but there's still a contributing component from each side, each team in that. So for example, at the top right, marketing's doing all these campaigns, trying to get as many people in the buying team engaged as possible. Sales is actually reaching out and saying: Hey, decision maker at this company. Would you like to come to our workshop on how to build a business case around our solution or product, right? While marketing's actually marketing to them as well at the same time. So it's what I always call surrounding the buying team. So no matter what channel they're paying attention to be that sales, be that linkedIn, be that email, be that seeing ads online, it's all the same message and the same offer being delivered to them so that we can make sure that we're engaging them and, really solidifying the value that, that our product or service can add for them.

Steven Morell: You have a team on both sides. You have a team in your sales and marketing, and you have a buying center. That's a team in the countryside, if you will, that you are surrounding with the messaging and trying to engage. Practically, how do I make sure that on my side, the same people work on the same accounts?

John Dering: Yeah. Great. So that goes back to the target account list. And when you think about an AE and be that a strategic account, an enterprise account, a mid-market account because all of those flavors are important to all those layers you usually have an AE who's assigned to an account. And then, and whether that's a vertical or regional decision or kind of however the sales leaderships decide to build that infrastructure and that mapping. And then typically you'll have an SDR or a BDR who covers that AE, so within that component, that, BDR/SDR or AE, and they might divide up the buying center where the AE is going after the decision maker and the SDR and BDR are going after the influencers trying to get some intelligence so they can develop their point of view. You know, they're all mapped to the same accounts. And then, marketing can be broken up in different ways. It could be territories, it could be verticals. Oftentimes, you want to try to map it as closely as you can to the structure of the sales org and how that's done. Then they're helping to dive in and support the marketing functions that work for those sets of AEs to whom they're mapped as well. An example of that, at Demandbase, we had a field marketing team, and we had quote unquote Europe, it was mostly kinda London. But then we had East, central and West in the United States. And so that's how our sales teams were broken up. We also had strategic accounts, enterprise accounts, and mid-market accounts, but those marketers served all of those tiers of accounts within those regions. And so, they would set up regional events, workshops, things like that to highly important cities or metropolitan areas that had clusters of target accounts. And they would work with those field reps to help them prioritize which accounts, had a need for that content and to get them registered for those events or more holistically for a webinar or to share the right content video or ebook or whatever it is with them to make sure they're... 

Steven Morell: Would you say that account based marketing requires to get off your butt and knock on doors?

John Dering: Yeah, that was a really successful thing. It doesn't necessarily require, I would say, I think what we're seeing is this renaissance of techniques that we used to do pre-digital and then we said: Oh, we do all this stuff digitally, and we put all that stuff down. When you rally , it's valuable. So what we used to do is we would have one of those workshops in a region and our field marketer would go out to, you know, to run it and support it. They are easy, usually kind of live in the market or close to in proximity. And then what they would do is for the accounts that hadn't registered for this, they would actually go around and door knock the day of and bring donuts or whatever it was in, in Austin, Texas, they used to do bring like tacos or in things or things like that, but they would go around and door knock and say: Hey, like if anybody can make it, it's free. Here's what you're gonna learn. Those things. But the byproduct of that beyond, the attendance of the success of that event was they got in there and actually got to meet that decision maker face to face. If only for 2 or 3 minutes just to say hi, do the handshake, and say, now you know who I am. Now when I call you, email you, I'm not this, this entity through digital on the other side who's to get to me? We're starting to foster and build that relationship, and I think that's especially the enterprise and the strategic game.

Steven Morell: That's where deals get done and where expansion after the deal gets done is when there are relationships. And of course you have to deliver the value that you've promised, right? Make an impact on the organization. Describe to me if, and how that still works in the post-covid world. I haven't been all that much in visiting other people's offices anymore. But where I go it's pretty empty because most companies have returned to some sort of hybrid , 2 days in the office. The rest work from home. What are the chances that I stand there with my tacos and I hear, yeah: he's gonna be here next Wednesday.

John Dering: No, no. You're a hundred percent right, Steven. And just for clarity, that was a pre covid, pre pandemic.

Steven Morell: Yeah, that doesn't fly anymore, right?

John Dering: Well, so I think, it can, and it can't. Again, this goes back to profiling the accounts and what's relevant, right? In certain industries, they are absolutely in office every day, right? It depends on who they are. It also depends on who your buyer is, right? If you're selling to tech, that's a big challenge right now. But as I'm looking for my next role, I'm seeing tons of companies that are at least hybrid going into the office a couple days a week. And most likely you can either look at a job posting or something like that to figure which days of the week it is. So you could plan around that if you wanted to try to execute that. The other half is the type of the buyer that you're talking to, who that decision maker is and what their function and what their role is. So you can do some of that to profile. But I can tell you this if you can do that, I think that would set your brand out. Apart from all the others, still trying to do just everything digital, right? And maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But as a marketer, it's certainly worth a test to try to do. Because if you can get ahead of that curve of doing these things, that's gonna set you apart from your competitors and set you up for success when you're trying to break into those accounts.

Steven Morell: Fascinating. So let me ask you this. In with enterprise customers, what I know is they cannot buy in the same way that SMBs buy and what I'm seeing, not so rarely, is companies that do have a handful or two or three or four handful of enterprise customers and think, and that happened by the way at some point to my go-to market team as well, we were thinking, oh, enterprise sales, we have that covered. We have 25 enterprise customers. We know how to do enterprise sales, but, when I looked into it deeper, I saw all of those 25 deals were founder led, executive led, strikes of luck, I would say. We got lucky, and we were lucky because there was a person on the enterprise side who just bought something like an SMB. Somebody who just liked what we were doing, had the power or was in the position to just strong arm his way into the budget and write a check like an SMB business owner, and this was nowhere close to enterprise sales. Enterprise sales- I need to understand the buying center. Talk to me about the buying center and talk to me about the decision and budgeting process on the enterprise side.

John Dering: Yeah, you're a hundred percent right Steven. Because and I've seen this time and time again where , you know, an organization decides to go up market and they think, either their product or they have a new product line and: hey, we can go to enterprise because we've got a handful of founder-led sales. The reality is the transition of how a founder-led sale works, or sale works to a sales team and how they can execute that is very different. And the challenge with going up market is that because of what you just described, right? The buying centers, the procurement processes, the approved vendor processes and compliance reviews and all these other things you have to meet in order to be able to sell to that enterprise to start, right? They need to know that. Depending on your product and things like that, but that you are secure so that they feel secure and that you're gonna be around, right? They're not just gonna make a decision, and then in a year and a half, you're gonna go under. All of those things are lumpy, right? And unpredictable. And so as an organization who's trying to create predictability, you lose all that. And it's extremely difficult to influence an enterprise or strategic account to buy by your needs and your timeline and your schedule? In fact, it's just the opposite. So in a consultative or solution selling motion, you get into the space of: let me help you do that. Let me, let's figure out how to do this. Let's figure out how, oh, we don't have SOC compliance. Okay. We gotta go back and get that before we can sell to you. One thing I've seen really successfully organizations that sell into there is that the salespeople become experts on how their procurement departments work. They're not talking to their decision maker about let's move the deal through. They're talking to the legal department and the procurement department directly and they've gone and built the business case, but they're helping to move it along and working with them so , you know, they can understand and that helps them better forecast, right? That reduces some of the lumpiness. But it also depends on the size of deal you're talking about, right? Because a lot of those founder-led sales motions might be, one small team and then they get to put the logo up on the website and say, we're working with GM, or, Amazon or whatever. It's, as we used to say, it's two guys in a garage at Amazon, right? Like it's not company wide stuff. And oh, if we can get her there and then expand, tons of revenue value. You gotta deliver value for that team and you gotta turn that team into a champion. Now the nice thing is if you've gotten that team, you've gotten through the procurement, the compliance, all those other things. So it does make it easier to expand if you can develop that champion relationship and get higher up in the org. But that's really where like enterprise selling, strategic account selling is different from mid-market. And SMB, as you were highlighting because, you have to develop a broader set of relationships and you need to go up the ladder or the hierarchy of responsibility within the org. And the higher up you get, the harder it is to get time and awareness about the impact that you're making within the organization. So, you have a broad value proposition that demonstrates business value for them, not just: oh, this is a better mouse trap for me to use than the one I was using before, right? It actually has to be a strategic conversation within the organization. And so developing that point of view, understanding how, going bigger, larger faster actually impacts the business. And a direct impact as opposed to a correlation, like all of those things have to come together to get through all those motions and make that work. 

Steven Morell: And I don't know who needs to hear this, but maybe if you're listening, I have a piece of advice. If you are selling to SMBs and you happen to sell to Amazon or Google or General Motors one deal, do not put them on your website into your local wall. And the reason is you're scaring away other customers. If you're not going specifically after companies like Amazon, like GE, like Coca-Cola and so forth, do exclude them from your website because we go to the website, we look at the tool, and then when we see the logo wall, we think, are those companies like mine? And if they're not, I go like, oh, that's probably not for me. And you're losing, you're not impressing anyone. You are losing, and you are certainly not impressing Amazon because you're sold to General Electrics or something. Let me ask you something else. Enterprise customers go through a budget planning cycle throughout the year. And if you are selling something in a pricing range of say a 100K, something significant, then you need to be planned into the budget. And I'm not an enterprise, super experienced enterprise sales person, but from what I have experienced in the past, this, typically, looks somewhat like this, that there is an annual budget planning event, or at least a quarterly one, and your champion has to kind of stand up and make the case I've seen cases where they have to present a multi-page presentation and defend the budget that they are planning and allocating for you. And if they can't do this, and if they can't convince others that this is an investment worth doing and there will be no purchase order. Talk me a little bit through how does that look on the buyer side and how do I enable them to do this effectively, easy and in line with the corporate strategy?

John Dering: Yeah, that's, beyond the compliance and stuff where you could really get the decision to go forward. The most critical component is that the budget is planned. And we used to see at Demandbase all the time, there would be multiple sales cycles into an account. And usually the second, at least in the enterprise side was what you were just describing, was, we're planning, we think there's value there. We need to justify the budget, so how do we do that? And so, as part of my role at Demandbase I helped develop content and did evangelism. And so a lot of what I was doing in that was showcasing the value and the impact that our product had for the success of marketing and how that was used. At Workboard we were doing the same thing. We were helping to build business cases to show the impact of the product and how aligning the strategy across the entire organization and measuring its progress using OKRs was doing that. And so, as a vendor trying to help your buyer, we're really taking them through the motions of building that justification and helping them do that themselves, training them how to talk about it, how to look at it, how to think about it in comparison to other decisions and priorities they have. If you're a rip and replace scenario there's a different conversation in how you build that case. If you're just adding a new piece let's say technology to the stack. What are the important factors? What's the impact it's gonna have? How does it play with the other technology there to add compounded value? And what's the return that you're gonna get for that investment? And what does that return mean to the business at large? 

Steven Morell: And of course you need to ask the simple question, how often do you plan your budget?

John Dering: Well, that as well, right? 

Steven Morell: And when do you do this? Are you doing this at the end of September? I just recently spoke to a VP Sales who is planning to sell into enterprise and he goes, well, we have the whole Q 4. And I thought, I'm not so sure. I think most budgets for this year or for next year actually have already been planned out. It was gonna be hard. Talk to me a little bit about the seasonality. When are typically budgets being established and when do I start prepping my champion to go through this process?

John Dering: Yeah, I would say mid-year to their fiscal calendar. And the interesting thing is, especially when you get into the enterprise stage their fiscal calendars are not necessarily set on the normal calendar, But that's interesting why? If you saw, this trend has picked up, but like Salesforce shifted their fiscal calendar to be one month off. Because what they didn't wanna do early on was try to close people when they're trying to close their business. That doesn't make any sense. Their priority is not buying, their priority is selling. What I typically see is, and have seen, that process starts at the beginning of a Q3 according to the fiscal calendar of the organization, and that's where the conversation starts. Usually by the beginning of their Q4, they're getting hard numbers, and they've spent their Q3 talking to their vendors, thinking about what they wanna do, putting some rough numbers to paper. And Q4 is really where they're going in to lock that down and make those justifications at larger organizations, if you're kind of, in the more Pre-IPO , maybe you call it enterprise, maybe you call it commercial of mid-market, those conversations tend to happen a little bit more right at the beginning of Q4. They're trying to get that at least in the marketing teams, in my experience. But so the importance is understanding, and this again, this is understanding what's unique about these accounts and how they operate. Because you may even have two in the same sector that have different fiscal calendars. So you might be engaging them at different times of the year to do that. But yeah, halfway through the year is usually when I would, as a marketer/salesperson, be thinking about that offer and how we're gonna go, to support them in developing that intelligence internally.

Steven Morell: Let me follow up here with something mechanical, looking at your own pipeline. I've been asked this a lot in the past and I'm giving an answer and I feel the answer is right, but I'd like to know your thoughts on this. As a sales leader, as a revenue leader, you look at conversion rates. How many leads convert into sales qualified opportunities? How many opportunities convert into closed deals and so forth. On that journey, I initially deal with people from the same company that then turn into accounts, and I sometimes have 2 people turning into one account, and sometimes I have 5 turning into one account. How do you calculate your conversion rate from leads to accounts?

John Dering: Excellent question, Steven. Because this is where the transition from a more demand gen focused, growth oriented to ABM has to be addressed. And so in an ABM model, we don't talk about ... Let me just back up to say, I think the crux of that challenge is the word leads. Because for a salesperson a lead, it's an account, right? And it's one person. It's multiple people. It's the opportunity to sell, sell more products. From marketing, we've traditionally thought about leads as people at those accounts, and so we've used MQLs, and as you just described, you could have multiple MQLs at the same account. But if you're trying to run numbers and a formula across your funnel, it breaks down because you have multiple people. But the denominator changes to one account. So the way we think about it in an ABM model is what you would call a marketing qualified account. And so typically what that measure is it's not all that dissimilar to how you would think about the qualifications for an MQL, except that you start to think about it at the account level, which usually means there are multiple stakeholders at different levels. Showing different scores or different levels of engagement. So for example, you might say, I have two VPs and one, manager or director or something like that who have spent enough time engaging with our content that we think, okay, that's enough engagement to say there's something going on there. It's a marketing qualified account. Let's change our current motions against them. And that could be either passing them directly to sales, or it could be in conjunction, you know, launching something that's, what I call a meeting maker. A direct mail piece or something on targeting them on LinkedIn to try to get them to request a demo or something of that flavor. So when you do it that way, and think about it, the entity of these multiple buyers still is one account. Or more importantly, one buying center. Because this is where it gets challenging. When you think about the big strategic accounts and their multiple buying centers, each one of those buying centers is technically an account when you look at the math and try to calculate this. So that's how you have to think about it. What's a challenge is that it's really hard to parse those out because most of the technology that does it matches it by a domain for the company. So it takes a little bit of extra elbow grease to parse those out. But that's how you start to think about it, as buying centers. And that's the serious decision. Updated waterfall, they did... oh geez, it's probably been almost a decade ago versus what they released in the MQL 2 decades ago. But that's how you think about it, and that's how you make the math work. So you can start to look at the different stages of the customer journey, understand what's performing, what's not and then use that intelligence to either improve efficiencies or think about whether we are targeting the right sets of accounts at the very top?

Steven Morell: So I usually answer that, at some point you will always have a ratio between people and companies, leads and accounts. You can decide where this happens. This might be website visitors to contact form, you know, hand raisers. But at some point you have to have this ratio, and all that matters is that you measure in the same place because then your ratio is gonna be, the error rate and the margin of error is included. And it's the same. But I think that behind that is, this is a symptom of mixing transactional sales with account-based marketing. And you get into this problem when you mix transactional person to person sales with somewhere down the road. Oh it's also accounts. You have to separate those things, account based or transactional.

John Dering: And they service two different use cases. If your ACVs are say, under 30 grand a year or your ARR per account, same kind of thing your deal velocities are happening in less than a quarter. ABM probably isn't the right strategy, and in fact it isn't. But, if you have a product line that services there, and then you have a product line that's the other side of that 40 - 50000 a year plus sales cycles taking, three to six plus months, multiple buyers engaged, then that's where you wanna be applying the ABM strategy. And you can be using both of them side by side within an organization. But what it does mean is that you're focusing on those go-to-market motions. Differently and separately, there's very little bleed between that. The only way, the only scenario is I would say where those come together. Is when you have a PLG or self-serve motion, and then you're trying to harvest enterprise growth out of those users. And that's a backend play on that where you're, it's a different flavor of ABM, but where you're looking for, you know, those opportunities the self-serve or the,the individual user base where there's multiple individuals in an account to say, okay, there's a justification for an enterprise license here. How do we go about doing that? And it may not be going after those users, right? They might be end users, but you now have a point of view. You might have a sales assisted motion to help them be successful and out of that you can garner intelligence to create that point of view. And then go to the decision makers within the org to try to say: Hey, we could either give you more features or reduce your investment costs for this, right? Or give you more users, or, whatever the value proposition is for why they should be considering an enterprise license. But that's the only one, I think, where you kind of see those two really converge. 

Steven Morell: Yeah. And you should think, if you're doing product led and you're doing SMB transactional and you're eyeing, we've gotta move up market and do enterprise, do you really have to do all three? Are you at that stage where this is, that moves the needle? Wouldn't it be like, really, wouldn't it be better to become really good at one of those three things instead of spreading your resources and having a more and more complex go-to-market motion? Listen, John, I have a traditional question I ask every guest on my show. If I had a time machine, I could send a postcard to the five years younger John Dering, with a warning of what not to do or what to do differently. What would you like me to write on that cart?

John Dering: Oh, that's a great question. I would probably say five years ago. Don't worry, it's all gonna work out.

Steven Morell: That's a fantastic act.

John Dering: I had my first kid six years ago and it was a challenging first year or two between work and all that kind of stuff. So that would be the advice I would give myself to just, Release that pressure valve at the time and think, okay, you don't everything doesn't hinge on what you're doing right now. Although it does to some degree, but it's okay. Just try things, experiment. Don't be afraid to go out on a limb and go for it, so to speak.  I think that's what I would tell myself 

Steven Morell: And if you have kids, and if you have kids, then do what every soldier knows. Sleep when you can.

John Dering: Oh yes.

Steven Morell: Alright everyone. That brings us to the end of this episode of Speak Revenue. I want to thank our guest, John Dering, for joining me today. Wonderful conversation. Thank you, John. Please, huge shout out to our listeners. Do visit us on speakrevenue.com. Also go to Apple Podcast, Google Podcast. As long as we still have that Spotify or wherever you go for your listening needs and, If you like the show, leave us a great review. It really helps to get the word out. Also, follow us on YouTube, on LinkedIn, on Instagram, wherever you can find us. And comment. And we are super approachable. Send us your feedback. We'll be back soon with another great guest. Until then, stay curious, keep listening. Stay safe and see you soon. Thank you.